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Pharmakon Podcast Transcription
00:00:02:56 - 00:00:31:55
Speaker 1
This is Pharmakon, the show that's lovingly disobedient. And I'm your host, Kaylee Laakso. Hey, amazing listeners. Welcome to Pharmakon, the new podcast that critically assesses the poison and cure in just about everything. I'm thrilled to have my first ever special guest with me to discuss a topic that literally reaches new heights each year. Drones. I'm here today with C-UAS expert and former U.S. Army Special Forces officer Erik Campbell to shed some light on the complex considerations surrounding drone use.
Speaker 1
This is Pharmakon, the show that's lovingly disobedient. And I'm your host, Kaylee Laakso. Hey, amazing listeners. Welcome to Pharmakon, the new podcast that critically assesses the poison and cure in just about everything. I'm thrilled to have my first ever special guest with me to discuss a topic that literally reaches new heights each year. Drones. I'm here today with C-UAS expert and former U.S. Army Special Forces officer Erik Campbell to shed some light on the complex considerations surrounding drone use.
00:00:32:32 - 00:00:36:24
Speaker 1
Erik, thanks so much for joining me today. I'm thrilled that you're able to come by the show.
Speaker 1
Erik, thanks so much for joining me today. I'm thrilled that you're able to come by the show.
00:00:36:30 - 00:00:38:16
Speaker 2
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
00:00:38:50 - 00:00:48:18
Speaker 1
And while I've known you for some time, any of our listeners likely haven't had the pleasure of meeting you yet. To remedy that, I love if you please tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of how you came into the counter drone field.
Speaker 1
And while I've known you for some time, any of our listeners likely haven't had the pleasure of meeting you yet. To remedy that, I love if you please tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of how you came into the counter drone field.
00:00:48:42 - 00:01:15:27
Speaker 2
I joined the military in 2003 as a combat engineer and spent five years in the National Guard. From there, received my commission and went into the infantry as an officer. I've done three tours in Afghanistan and then two on the continent of Africa. Specific to those tours was the use of drones as part of our toolset. So every time we would do an operation, drones would go up as an enabler.
Speaker 2
I joined the military in 2003 as a combat engineer and spent five years in the National Guard. From there, received my commission and went into the infantry as an officer. I've done three tours in Afghanistan and then two on the continent of Africa. Specific to those tours was the use of drones as part of our toolset. So every time we would do an operation, drones would go up as an enabler.
00:01:15:47 - 00:01:25:26
Speaker 2
My role was to command and control the aircraft. So if we needed to go a certain direction or to look in a certain area, I would relay that command to the drone operator.
Speaker 2
My role was to command and control the aircraft. So if we needed to go a certain direction or to look in a certain area, I would relay that command to the drone operator.
00:01:25:51 - 00:01:29:56
Speaker 1
There is an interesting word you said that the drone had become an enabler. What does it mean?
Speaker 1
There is an interesting word you said that the drone had become an enabler. What does it mean?
00:01:30:25 - 00:01:43:56
Speaker 2
When I say enabler, I mean a specific tool that helps you complete the mission in a more effective way. The drone was that definitely a force multiplier, a piece of technology that we use to help us gain advantage in the battlespace.
Speaker 2
When I say enabler, I mean a specific tool that helps you complete the mission in a more effective way. The drone was that definitely a force multiplier, a piece of technology that we use to help us gain advantage in the battlespace.
00:01:44:32 - 00:02:04:33
Speaker 1
So I have to imagine that if you were able to control this drone, to go and look at different areas of interest, that that must have very directly saved lives by enabling technology to do the work so that soldiers didn't have to actually go out physically on the ground to recon each of these locations.
Speaker 1
So I have to imagine that if you were able to control this drone, to go and look at different areas of interest, that that must have very directly saved lives by enabling technology to do the work so that soldiers didn't have to actually go out physically on the ground to recon each of these locations.
00:02:05:23 - 00:02:32:30
Speaker 2
Yeah, most definitely. It made operations a lot safer. And not only that, it was an evolution. It was better. Instead of just getting a visual observation, we could use infrared, we could look for specific heat signatures. We could loiter overhead from hundreds to thousands of feet looking at the specific areas in and around the region, we were looking at to understand what's coming and what's going.
Speaker 2
Yeah, most definitely. It made operations a lot safer. And not only that, it was an evolution. It was better. Instead of just getting a visual observation, we could use infrared, we could look for specific heat signatures. We could loiter overhead from hundreds to thousands of feet looking at the specific areas in and around the region, we were looking at to understand what's coming and what's going.
00:02:32:33 - 00:02:38:37
Speaker 2
We could stay up for hours at a time. Much better situational awareness. That's why I say it was the next evolution.
Speaker 2
We could stay up for hours at a time. Much better situational awareness. That's why I say it was the next evolution.
00:02:39:08 - 00:02:46:09
Speaker 1
Okay, so you've made a really strong case for the benefit of drones, but I have to ask, are there any concerns you have regarding the proliferation of drone use?
Speaker 1
Okay, so you've made a really strong case for the benefit of drones, but I have to ask, are there any concerns you have regarding the proliferation of drone use?
00:02:46:46 - 00:03:07:22
Speaker 2
One of the concerning systems, I would say, is the loitering munition, which is basically a drone on a one way trip with a explosive payload. And that's commonly referred to as a kamikaze drone. The situation in Ukraine is showing us drone use is very important. It's part of the toolkit of the soldiers over there, both Russians and Ukrainians.
Speaker 2
One of the concerning systems, I would say, is the loitering munition, which is basically a drone on a one way trip with a explosive payload. And that's commonly referred to as a kamikaze drone. The situation in Ukraine is showing us drone use is very important. It's part of the toolkit of the soldiers over there, both Russians and Ukrainians.
00:03:07:58 - 00:03:24:05
Speaker 2
And the kamikaze drones are being used quite effectively, unfortunately, by the Russians, hitting critical infrastructure and civilian targets. So in that respect, the future does not look that bright for the that specific use case for drones.
Speaker 2
And the kamikaze drones are being used quite effectively, unfortunately, by the Russians, hitting critical infrastructure and civilian targets. So in that respect, the future does not look that bright for the that specific use case for drones.
00:03:24:48 - 00:03:40:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thanks for that insight. A bit gloomy. But it's very important to understand. And if we could shift gears a bit, I'd love to get your thoughts on how much of a problem or potential problem drones pose to critical infrastructure outside of conflict zones. You know, how much of a concern is that to you?
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thanks for that insight. A bit gloomy. But it's very important to understand. And if we could shift gears a bit, I'd love to get your thoughts on how much of a problem or potential problem drones pose to critical infrastructure outside of conflict zones. You know, how much of a concern is that to you?
00:03:40:49 - 00:04:03:27
Speaker 2
It's a big concern, and I think it's getting bigger every day. There hasn't been a major incident yet. You could potentially consider there's a 2018 Gatwick Airport in the UK where a drone shut down the airport operations for, I think over 24 hours and has millions and millions of dollars in shutdown costs and canceled flights. So that's a concern.
Speaker 2
It's a big concern, and I think it's getting bigger every day. There hasn't been a major incident yet. You could potentially consider there's a 2018 Gatwick Airport in the UK where a drone shut down the airport operations for, I think over 24 hours and has millions and millions of dollars in shutdown costs and canceled flights. So that's a concern.
00:04:03:29 - 00:04:26:08
Speaker 2
But as far as loss of life, I don't think there has been a drone incident that's really caused people to make a big reaction yet. I think, unfortunately, it's going to happen. When I say that, I mean drone activities in and around airports is a primary concern of mine because unfortunately, operators don't really know the rules and they're literally flying aircraft.
Speaker 2
But as far as loss of life, I don't think there has been a drone incident that's really caused people to make a big reaction yet. I think, unfortunately, it's going to happen. When I say that, I mean drone activities in and around airports is a primary concern of mine because unfortunately, operators don't really know the rules and they're literally flying aircraft.
00:04:26:27 - 00:04:59:22
Speaker 2
Those aircraft can get in the way of others and that can be catastrophic. So if there's a careless hobbyist drone operator near an airport, he or she could potentially impact inbound or outbound aircraft. We're starting to see airports invest and become a little more urgent in their concerns for this. However, the FAA is still conducting studies to understand the impacts of integrating counter drone equipment, because a lot of times there can be unwanted interference from some of this technology to detect these drones.
Speaker 2
Those aircraft can get in the way of others and that can be catastrophic. So if there's a careless hobbyist drone operator near an airport, he or she could potentially impact inbound or outbound aircraft. We're starting to see airports invest and become a little more urgent in their concerns for this. However, the FAA is still conducting studies to understand the impacts of integrating counter drone equipment, because a lot of times there can be unwanted interference from some of this technology to detect these drones.
00:04:59:40 - 00:05:24:59
Speaker 2
They're still trying to ascertain specifically some of the fallout from that. The fact of the matter is, drones are becoming proliferated more and more. They're easy to buy. They're becoming cheaper. The sensors are so great. People want them. So we're seeing it's $1,000,000,000 and billions and billions of dollars of industry. So we're seeing that whether your photographer are making movies or just want to fly a small aircraft, I think it's very appealing to people.
Speaker 2
They're still trying to ascertain specifically some of the fallout from that. The fact of the matter is, drones are becoming proliferated more and more. They're easy to buy. They're becoming cheaper. The sensors are so great. People want them. So we're seeing it's $1,000,000,000 and billions and billions of dollars of industry. So we're seeing that whether your photographer are making movies or just want to fly a small aircraft, I think it's very appealing to people.
00:05:25:21 - 00:05:30:34
Speaker 2
What that means is more people have them. And your likelihood of having an incident increases?
Speaker 2
What that means is more people have them. And your likelihood of having an incident increases?
00:05:31:33 - 00:05:57:19
Speaker 1
Absolutely. In fact, billion dollar plus industry made me think about the drone racing league and how this has really sprung up. I believe it was started in 2015. And just had you know, maybe a small, little following and now has millions of people that watch it. So this to me is just a totally new and just kind of interesting direction to take drones in where it's drones for sport and racing and entertainment and true like ESPN kind of stuff.
Speaker 1
Absolutely. In fact, billion dollar plus industry made me think about the drone racing league and how this has really sprung up. I believe it was started in 2015. And just had you know, maybe a small, little following and now has millions of people that watch it. So this to me is just a totally new and just kind of interesting direction to take drones in where it's drones for sport and racing and entertainment and true like ESPN kind of stuff.
00:05:57:28 - 00:05:58:37
Speaker 1
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1
What are your thoughts on that?
00:05:58:55 - 00:06:09:46
Speaker 2
Yeah, that could be the next NFL. Who knows? Drone operators could be the next Tom Brady. Could be kind of a new emerging sport. Who knows? Maybe it'll be in the Olympics someday.
Speaker 2
Yeah, that could be the next NFL. Who knows? Drone operators could be the next Tom Brady. Could be kind of a new emerging sport. Who knows? Maybe it'll be in the Olympics someday.
00:06:10:11 - 00:06:15:29
Speaker 1
Fascinating stuff. Just want to say thank you so much for your time. This has been absolutely amazing.
Speaker 1
Fascinating stuff. Just want to say thank you so much for your time. This has been absolutely amazing.
00:06:15:44 - 00:06:16:29
Speaker 2
My pleasure.
Speaker 2
My pleasure.
00:06:16:30 - 00:06:22:30
Speaker 1
Which leads me to my final question, which is, do you view the drone as more of a poison or a cure?
Speaker 1
Which leads me to my final question, which is, do you view the drone as more of a poison or a cure?
00:06:22:53 - 00:06:51:29
Speaker 2
That's a great question. I guess based off my military background, we spoke of how that's a force multiplier I am leaning toward here. I think it's a great piece of technology. I think it's only a matter of time until we we develop the drone to be more capable and we're doing that. I'm excited for that. But in the same breath, though, there's that curse side of it where it could be used in malicious ways, and there's going to be a fallout for sure.
Speaker 2
That's a great question. I guess based off my military background, we spoke of how that's a force multiplier I am leaning toward here. I think it's a great piece of technology. I think it's only a matter of time until we we develop the drone to be more capable and we're doing that. I'm excited for that. But in the same breath, though, there's that curse side of it where it could be used in malicious ways, and there's going to be a fallout for sure.
00:06:51:31 - 00:07:06:40
Speaker 2
When a tragic incident happens or a criminal or a terrorist is using a drone in a terrible way, so there's going to be a back and forth there. But I think it's a great technology. It's exciting technology and and look forward to seeing where it goes.
Speaker 2
When a tragic incident happens or a criminal or a terrorist is using a drone in a terrible way, so there's going to be a back and forth there. But I think it's a great technology. It's exciting technology and and look forward to seeing where it goes.
00:07:07:51 - 00:07:32:38
Speaker 1
Awesome. Absolutely. And I think kind of my closing sentiment on it then is like, let's continue to enjoy this honeymoon period with drones, but also kind of recognize that it is that and that during this same period pre-crisis look to increase security, look to increase protections, ensuring that the drone users have the ability to fly their drones and to use them in the locations that they're able to.
Speaker 1
Awesome. Absolutely. And I think kind of my closing sentiment on it then is like, let's continue to enjoy this honeymoon period with drones, but also kind of recognize that it is that and that during this same period pre-crisis look to increase security, look to increase protections, ensuring that the drone users have the ability to fly their drones and to use them in the locations that they're able to.
00:07:32:45 - 00:07:37:34
Speaker 1
The time is now to capitalize on the awesome new technology that continues to come out.
Speaker 1
The time is now to capitalize on the awesome new technology that continues to come out.
00:07:38:36 - 00:07:40:34
Speaker 2
I agree. Thanks for having me today.
Speaker 2
I agree. Thanks for having me today.
00:07:40:56 - 00:07:44:26
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Look to have you back again.
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Look to have you back again.
00:07:44:37 - 00:07:45:49
Speaker 2
Looking forward to it. Thank you.
Speaker 2
Looking forward to it. Thank you.
00:07:47:08 - 00:07:56:43
Speaker 1
And that's a wrap. You've heard it here. It's a pharmakon. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please reach out with feedback or suggestions for future topics.
Speaker 1
And that's a wrap. You've heard it here. It's a pharmakon. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please reach out with feedback or suggestions for future topics.
00:07:57:41 - 00:08:00:34
Speaker 3
Until next time.
Speaker 3
Until next time.